00:16
I'm my pronouncer and a and I'm queer neurodivergent Latina
00:24
I used to be an astrophysicist and now I have my own company
00:28
movement consulting.
00:29
And what we do is that we go into scientific spaces and organizational
00:33
spaces and we build radically nourishing cultures there
00:38
Let's unpack all of that.
00:40
I'm so excited to get into it.
00:41
So you first started in Astrophysicist or astro?
00:45
Wait, how do you say it as Astrophysics, Astrophysics?
00:49
Do you wanna talk about a little bit about how you came into
00:52
that field and then how you kind of got into founding your own
00:56
So I um I had a very non traditional path like into science.
01:01
A lot of my peers um when I was doing my physics degree in undergrad
01:04
were like, yeah, I was taking radios apart when I was like five
01:07
years old or like, I had a lot of them like have like a parent
01:10
or some sort of relative that is in science, but I didn't have
01:15
that my parents were working class.
01:17
Um And I'm a first generation college student.
01:20
And so for me, it was like, I just happened to go to public schools
01:25
that had an engineering component or a science component
01:29
And I kind of just fell into it.
01:31
I took my first physics class in the ninth grade.
01:34
I had no idea what physics was and my professor was so great
01:38
and I loved him so much.
01:39
I was like, wow, I just want to follow in his footsteps and I
01:42
kind of, you know, made my way to undergrad where I did my physics
01:45
degree, you know, I applied to several astronomy research
01:50
Uh you know, not knowing anything but just having the mentors
01:53
to kind of guide me along the way.
01:55
And I, I decided, wow, like, astrophysics, this is something
01:59
that I really love and like, I want to do this as a full time job
02:01
Like, how do I get there as a junior in college?
02:04
So then I'm like, OK, I applied to grad school.
02:07
It was a harrowing experience because it was right after the
02:10
stock market crash in 2008.
02:12
And so there was like, not a lot of programs, you know, it was
02:15
like, I think five times the number of people were that normally
02:18
applied were applying because there were no jobs.
02:21
It was, it was a very tumultuous time.
02:23
But I got into a phd program and I started my scientific training
02:27
when I was there, I started experiencing a lot of things that
02:31
I didn't anticipate.
02:33
There was a lot of, you know, negative experiences.
02:36
There were, there was a lot of discrimination, I would say
02:39
even like exploitation that was happening to me, but also
02:42
to the people around me.
02:43
You know, it was my dream to become a professor of Astrophysics
02:46
and I really wanted to do this thing and it was my life's goal
02:49
and I was like, working so hard to get there.
02:51
But in about my fourth year of graduate school, I was like,
02:54
I don't think I can do this anymore.
02:56
It's really taking uh an effect on my mental health.
02:58
Just the amount of stress that I was under.
03:01
I, you know, once I started writing my dissertation, I started
03:05
waking up with panic attacks in my sleep.
03:07
I, like, I lost um the year that I was studying for my qualifier
03:11
exam, which is this exam that's like you do your first two years
03:15
of your phd program and it's classes and then you take this
03:18
exam and if you pass it, you get to continue with your phd as
03:23
And if you fail, you have to leave with your master's degree
03:25
So it's this very, very, like important exam.
03:28
Could you retake the exam if you fail?
03:30
Yes, most places allow you to take it a second time.
03:33
Um But it's a lot, it's so much, I mean, you, you work for probably
03:37
six months preparing this for this exam.
03:40
Um And while I was studying, I, you know, I realized that, uh
03:44
I wasn't able to write in a straight line anymore.
03:46
I was getting cramps.
03:48
Yeah, in my hand while I was trying to write and, like, my notes
03:51
weren't legible and I've always had really neat handwriting
03:53
So I started going to doctors.
03:55
They gave me an MRI, they, you know, they sent me to a neurologist
03:58
and they couldn't find anything officially wrong with me
04:01
They were like, it's just stress and I've also heard of a lot
04:03
of women, um, and especially women of color, developing autoimmune
04:07
diseases in these types of programs because these things
04:11
the propensity for that lives in our DNA and then a stressful
04:14
Can you activate that?
04:17
My mom, I don't know if your mom is the same way but whenever
04:22
I'm feeling really stressed or going through a very, really
04:25
stressful time, whether it was in college or in, you know,
04:29
now working full time and doing life, she would always worry
04:35
about my health because it's like stress.
04:39
You can't see it, you can't see when someone's experiencing
04:43
it, but the effect it has on your body.
04:46
I really didn't know that of, of how, you know, it's in our DNA
04:50
of how we're more susceptible to getting auto immune diseases
04:54
and, and getting sick because of stress makes so much sense
04:57
And I understand her fear now because I'm like, ok, that, you
05:01
know, that's a scary thing to experience.
05:03
And then also have doctors not really tell you or know what
05:07
exactly is wrong with you.
05:09
They're like, oh, it's just stress.
05:11
These programs are, they're so stressful and there's so many
05:14
expectations and there's so much overwork culture.
05:18
People like bragging about not getting any sleep or sleeping
05:21
in the office or like things like that.
05:23
We've talked about that before on the podcast of like phd programs
05:27
being so rigorous and being impressive that you have done
05:33
an all nighter or you're spending hours in the lab more and
05:37
if you're not doing enough, you're slacking off and you're
05:40
not taking it seriously.
05:42
That's crazy culture that we're in.
05:46
I mean, being in that environment, you just feel like you have
05:49
to, you have to do those things to prove yourself, especially
05:52
if you have multiple marginalized identities, right?
05:55
Because you're already, no matter what you do, you're seen
05:58
as not doing enough, you're seen as not being smart enough
06:01
not being good enough.
06:02
And it's really that environment that makes you internalize
06:06
those feelings of like, you know, insecurity or um that you're
06:10
an impostor or that you're not good enough to be there, et cetera
06:13
Um And so when I went through that, I was like, you know what
06:15
like it's not, it's not worth it.
06:17
Like this is causing me so much physical and mental distress
06:21
And so I decided, you know, I can't do this, like, even though
06:24
this was my dream, I had to put my health first.
06:27
And so it actually took me a while because at that point, I already
06:30
had my master's degree and I was like, maybe I'll do science
06:34
communication and I could, you know, I could leave and do that
06:37
I didn't need a phd, but I, I thought about it a lot because,
06:40
you know, as a Latina, I knew I was representing my community
06:43
and I knew that a lot of Latinas leave the pipeline.
06:45
Like I think right now, there's only probably like 11 Latina
06:50
astronomy professors in the US period, right out of like thousands
06:55
and thousands of people.
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And I think there's only uh 16 black women who are uh in astronomy
07:04
Astrophysics, right?
07:05
Doing as professors.
07:06
And so it's, there's so few of us that you feel that burden of
07:10
like having to carry your community.
07:12
And so I saw a lot of counsel, I, I spoke to a lot of people and
07:15
ultimately I decided, you know what, I'm gonna finish my phd
07:18
I'm gonna finish what I started, but I have to figure out what
07:22
I had two years left in my program at that point.
07:24
And I was so lucky to find a career counselor at my school who
07:30
And she told me from the beginning because I told her like,
07:32
I need to find a job.
07:33
I don't know what to do.
07:33
Like I'm gonna have a phd in astronomy.
07:35
Like, what do I do with that if I'm not going into astronomy
07:38
and astrophysics and um, you know, she was like, well, I don't
07:41
know, but we're going to figure it out during that time.
07:43
She was always telling me like, I see you doing your own thing
07:46
Like I see you having your own brand and I'm like, ok lady, like
07:49
I'm just trying to get a job you talking about.
07:51
I'm just here for advice.
07:53
I'm like, I just like, please help me like get these applications
07:55
out, please help me with my resume, that kind of thing.
07:57
But she was always adamant that um that I was going to do my own
08:00
thing and eventually, you know, I graduated and everything
08:04
and I started my company because I, I realized what in, in one
08:08
of my conversations, Ashley Watts is her name, like shout
08:10
out to her for just being, you know, my ultimate mentor.
08:13
But uh I, I told her one time I shot myself in the foot.
08:17
Like if I had done a lab science, like if I had done chemistry
08:20
or physics or something or biology, I could take that to the
08:24
industry and, and work in an industrial lab.
08:26
Like I wouldn't have to be in academia or something, right
08:28
And what she told me was like, no, like the fact that you went
08:32
through this right and got this phd and had these experiences
08:36
you're gonna be able to turn that into something, you know
08:39
And so I started, um I started my company about a year after
08:44
And I was like, you know, like I had so many difficult experiences
08:49
that nobody should have to go through in, in my phd program
08:53
And I saw, not only that, but I saw so many women of color get
08:57
pushed out of the programs, right?
08:59
Not being able to finish their phd, not being able to follow
09:02
the career that they really want and then not, not even being
09:05
able to like pivot in the way that I had the privilege to be able
09:08
So I was like, I don't want other people to have to go through
09:12
And so I decided I have this insider knowledge of what it's
09:16
like, not only to be within this system of academia, but also
09:20
to be a multiply marginalized person with um with deep knowledge
09:25
about what that looks like and I can go into these spaces and
09:29
help shift those cultures.
09:31
No, I love that you're doing that because it's such amazing
09:35
I, I we were talking about it earlier how I have never heard
09:38
anyone do this before.
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So it's necessary to create those safe environments.
09:46
So that way people aren't experiencing the same experiences
09:50
I really want to touch on the mental health aspects of like
09:54
going back a little bit.
09:56
Um And how, you know, I know you had such a physical reaction
10:01
to the stress and, and it was very mental and you thought, ok
10:07
this is just not, not worth it anymore.
10:09
I need to walk away first off, that takes such a strong person
10:15
to do that because I think most people would see that and be
10:18
like I failed like I did not push through.
10:23
I did not, you know, there is such big expectations of people
10:28
to just deal with it and just like the hustle is the hustle.
10:31
Like these are the things that everyone goes through and that
10:34
we have to just, you know, you're earning your stripes by doing
10:37
this and pushing through.
10:39
But when it comes to your physical health, then like you said
10:47
So do you have any advice for people who are feeling like, ok
10:51
if I walk away from something that I initially thought was
10:54
my absolute dream like this is, you know, I do this.
10:57
If I walk away, I'm going to be so unhappy.
10:59
I mean, first of all, I do want to say that in the moment, I didn't
11:03
feel like I had a choice.
11:04
I, I really, you know, after probably the third night of waking
11:07
up with a panic attack, you know, in my sleep, I literally had
11:11
the thought like, if I don't do something about this, I'm going
11:13
to end up um in a, you know, in a mental hospital like against
11:18
Like I'm gonna have a nervous breakdown, right?
11:20
And that was very scary to me.
11:22
Like it didn't feel, it didn't feel like an option.
11:24
And honestly, I did feel like I failed and not just because
11:27
that's not a thought that is intrinsic to me, but everything
11:30
in the environment was me that I feel people around me were
11:33
speaking about it as if I had failed.
11:35
If there's this attitude in academia that if you don't, if
11:37
you don't become a career academic, then like, you didn't
11:40
And and that necessarily means that there's something wrong
11:43
So I want to say that like uh that was the experience and it's
11:47
only now in retrospect, I had to do a lot of therapy.
11:50
I even had to do deep trauma therapy about the things I to me
11:53
in grad school, right?
11:54
That, that shit is serious, you know, and so I, I just want to
11:57
say that in retrospect, I can talk about it and be like, yeah
11:59
that was the best decision I ever made.
12:01
But in that moment, I felt so not just like I failed, but also
12:08
I felt so angry and bitter because it was like, I, I fought through
12:15
poverty, immigration, uh you know, being the first in my family
12:19
to go to school, everything I was fighting tooth and nail and
12:23
I had gotten so far and then not from my own lack of potential
12:29
But by other people squandering my potential right is where
12:33
I, I had to make that decision for myself to survive, right
12:37
And I don't think that's a decision that anyone should have
12:40
Which is why II I had to do a lot of emotional processing to get
12:44
to the point where I am now.
12:46
And I'm like, yeah, I I made the right decision for me, right
12:48
But I do want to say that like in terms of advice, you know, I
12:53
think that a lot of these spaces and it's not just academia
12:56
it's not just science, it's not just stem I think this is,
12:59
it's not unique to any industry, right?
13:01
It happens from the society that we are part of, that's capitalistic
13:05
that's individualist, right?
13:06
That treats human beings as laborers as bodies to, to go and
13:12
That makes a very, very small percentage of people, very wealthy
13:17
And so, you know, we're treated as this and it's very difficult
13:21
not to internalize that.
13:22
And so we feel feel guilty for resting, we feel guilty for taking
13:25
naps, we feel guilty for taking paid time off, even when we're
13:28
This is something this is not unique to, to academia, but there
13:32
are certain ways in which those spaces can exacerbate that
13:36
And so I, I would want to say like first and foremost, like you're
13:41
a human being and you deserve to be treated as a whole human
13:45
with all of the things that you need.
13:48
You know, we, we are not robots, we're not machines, right
13:50
We need rest, we need food, we need, uh you know, activities
13:54
that make us feel whole, that make us feel alive.
13:57
And so, you know, if you find yourself in a situation like that
14:00
just know that like it doesn't have to be that way.
14:03
And that's what I'm, you know, with the work that I'm doing
14:05
now, that's what I have to teach people.
14:07
Because in these spaces, there's, there's a mentality that
14:12
it has to be this way.
14:13
Either you work 50 60 hours a week in the lab or you are not going
14:20
to be a successful scientist.
14:21
And that isn't true.
14:23
It's not even based on science, right?
14:25
We know from, you know, uh neuroscience that a brain can only
14:30
concentrate for maximum four or five hours a day.
14:33
Anything after that you are, you are, you know, going toward
14:36
burnout and then once you burn out, you're out for the count
14:39
for many weeks, right?
14:40
So it actually makes more sense for us to work less, right?
14:44
But the environment is such a glorification of this over work
14:48
culture and again, not just in academia that it's very difficult
14:52
0 100% it's so relevant to this conversation is so applicable
14:56
because it's like, yeah, that is so true.
14:58
We're such an indi individualistic uh culture that we're
15:02
like, OK, my success and me succeeding is what's important
15:08
and I have to grind and I have to work all these crazy hours and
15:12
if I'm not doing that, I'm not doing enough.
15:14
Like, and you're constantly comparing yourself to other
15:19
And so I, our phd programs also very competitive or is it very
15:25
like, I'm just doing my own thing.
15:27
I'm just getting my phd or do other, did you find yourself comparing
15:31
yourself to other people as well?
15:32
Oh Yeah, definitely.
15:33
And not just me, like I was being compared to my peers, I was
15:38
Um And then the uh the, you know, then she finished, she graduated
15:43
and then it was just me for a while and then like eventually
15:45
there was another um Latina that like came in, right?
15:48
And so uh it was very isolating and something that I noticed
15:53
too when I was in my phd program is that uh among the students
15:58
there was gender parity, right?
15:59
So we had 50% women, you know, 50% men, which is great because
16:03
in the whole field, it's, I think slightly fewer than 30% women
16:06
So it was like, this was like touted as like a great thing.
16:09
However, it was mostly white women and, you know, throughout
16:12
my phd program, I was like, I was going through things and I
16:15
was looking around and I was like, OK, I thought it was because
16:20
But I see that the white women in my program are not experiencing
16:24
the same, quite the same things as me.
16:26
I'm being much more heavily scrutinized, right?
16:28
And I think a lot of that has to do with the xenophobia of like
16:33
I'm, I'm Latina, I'm different.
16:34
Uh I do things differently.
16:36
I speak differently.
16:36
I behave differently and I'm not expected to perform at the
16:41
same level level as my peers.
16:42
It's a very stressful, hostile environment.
16:46
And I think that something that I know now because this is,
16:51
this is what I teach people is that and, and this is what I tell
16:55
If I had gone back and, and created a community outside of my
17:00
department where I felt very like everything was just very
17:03
Um I think I would still be doing astronomy because I think
17:08
it's really hard to be in an environment where either everyone
17:10
is getting a phd or they have a phd, right?
17:14
Fewer than 1% of the world's population has a phd.
17:16
But in that environment, you're so you're like in this little
17:20
And so like if you don't have people uh who are in, from your
17:24
community or even just encouraging, right?
17:26
I, I think now for me, it's less so people who share my identity
17:30
as share my values, right?
17:32
Because I value community, I value collaboration.
17:34
I value rest and wholeheartedness and like, being seen as
17:38
a whole human, right?
17:39
Like, and I think that the values that are in the structure
17:43
of academia, I is the complete antithesis of that.
17:46
What is the kind of work that you're doing now in your company
17:50
and what you're currently working on?
17:53
I like to tell people that what we do is we teach folks basic
18:01
You know, I say that jokingly, but there's so many things that
18:04
we do not get taught through school or uh whatever work environments
18:09
What we do is we learn everything that society is teaching
18:12
us through media through, I mean, mostly media, right?
18:15
Because we we absorb these messages everywhere.
18:18
And it's that hustle culture, you were talking about that
18:21
grind culture, I need to make it, I need to succeed.
18:24
It's very individualist, right?
18:26
And so we don't question it.
18:28
It's not something that we ever even think about, right?
18:31
And so in, in these spaces, these organizational spaces,
18:35
there are vertical power structures, meaning that you have
18:38
somebody at the top and then somebody reports to them and then
18:40
another person, right?
18:41
And so there are people with more power and people with less
18:46
And the higher up you go, the fewer people like us you're gonna
18:50
see in those positions of power, right?
18:52
Because of individualism.
18:53
Because of capitalism, our communities have been very uh
18:57
sort of uh separated, right?
19:00
We don't have, you know, back, back in our home countries,
19:04
I'm from Chile community.
19:05
Is everything right?
19:07
You, that's how you survive, right?
19:08
And, and a lot of people of color communities of color know
19:12
But then you get into these systems and it's like every person
19:14
for themselves, like the Nobel Prize is awarded to individuals
19:17
not teams, even though large scientific teams are what make
19:22
these innovations happen.
19:24
And so for me, it's a matter of I come in and I have to teach people
19:28
and not just me but my whole team, right, we come in and we teach
19:32
How do you in a place where there is a power differential between
19:38
between different people based on their identity, based
19:40
on career level, et cetera.
19:42
How do we go back to being in right relationship with each other
19:46
which is a concept that indigenous people have taught us
19:49
where everything everyone is interconnected and we have
19:53
a responsibility, a duty toward one another and to care for
19:57
That is definitely not something that you see in most workplaces
20:00
and not just in academ in other workplaces too.
20:04
It with promotions with raises with anything like that.
20:08
It's so competitive that you're kind of like fending for yourself
20:11
like every man for themselves because you're fighting for
20:14
that next promotion.
20:16
It's so toxic because it's like, well, I'm friendly to you
20:20
and I'm, I'm seemingly, or I'm seemingly friendly and we have
20:24
somewhat of a community and because we're all in one place
20:27
we're all working as a company or we're all in a cohort together
20:32
But if there's a promotion up for grabs, then you're kind of
20:36
like eyeing each other and you're right.
20:40
Yes, it's very competitive.
20:42
And the thing is like a lot of people don't realize this, but
20:45
capitalism is built off of uh a false scarcity model, meaning
20:49
that the resources are scarce.
20:51
This is what we, this is the myth that we believe resources
20:54
are scarce and therefore we have to compete with each other
20:57
for these scarce resources.
20:59
But it's actually not the case, right?
21:01
Uh Wealth is abundant, right?
21:03
Resources are abundant.
21:04
It's just the way to make those resources and create those
21:07
opportunities, create those roles.
21:10
It's about how they're distributed too, right?
21:11
So when a very small percentage of people have all the resources
21:15
then of course, like the rest of the people are supposed to
21:17
compete with each other.
21:18
And that's the thing, competition fuels disconnection,
21:22
We how can we form community with people that we are competing
21:27
And it's the same way even in a college classroom, right?
21:29
The myth is that there's only a handful of a s that are available
21:34
and so you have to compete with your classmates over who's
21:36
gonna get the top grades, right?
21:38
Because the people with the top grades are gonna get the top
21:41
No, that's true because it's the most well connected people
21:43
who are gonna get the best jobs and usually it's people of power
21:46
privilege and wealth, right?
21:47
But we are, we sell this idea and we think like, you know, most
21:51
people are gonna get BS and CS, some people are gonna get FS
21:54
and a few people are gonna get a so in the classroom, we compete
21:57
with each other, right?
21:58
Even if that's something that we're not told explicitly,
22:02
And so we don't collaborate with each other.
22:04
So one of the projects that we do is called the collective classroom
22:07
And we come in to undergraduate science classrooms like chemistry
22:11
physics, astrophysics, uh biology.
22:14
And we take these individualist traditional classrooms
22:17
and we create a collective where the students are working
22:19
together uh with the professor, the professor is also part
22:23
of the community and it's a professor's job as a person with
22:25
the most power in the room to listen to the anonymous feedback
22:30
uh of the students biweekly and then uh implement those changes
22:35
in real time to serve the collective, right?
22:38
And so and the students get to decide, OK, what is the best way
22:41
for us to learn and how do we care for each other?
22:44
And at first, the students are resistant because everything
22:47
around them is telling them that you have to compete and that
22:50
you know, maybe you have this little like woo woo classroom
22:53
or whatever, where you're taking care of each other, but everywhere
22:55
else out there, you're gonna have to compete.
22:57
But by the middle of the semester, the students start to take
23:00
really uh internalize these ideas and they start to say, hey
23:03
actually, it's much better when we care for each other, when
23:06
we collaborate together and we're not competing in this way
23:09
And so that's what of the things that we like to do is we come
23:13
into these spaces and we build an awareness first, you have
23:16
to know that this is systemic, this is not interpersonal,
23:19
This is not like racism, for example, is not something that
23:22
I say to you, it's literally a system, right?
23:25
It's it it's in the larger society, but it's also in these little
23:28
microcosms that we inhabit.
23:30
And so we build that awareness and we say this is what's happening
23:33
And then we say right now that you have this context, how do
23:37
you do the internal emotional work and the relational work
23:42
in order to level those power differentials as much as possible
23:45
so that we can build community with each other?
23:47
Because often times people get so disheartened by saying
23:50
you know, like racism is this giant thing.
23:52
People have been struggling, like many, many, many thousands
23:55
of people have been struggling against this for hundreds
23:58
And so what is one individual gonna do?
24:01
But the point is community, we don't have to do it alone.
24:04
Matter of fact, it's never gonna happen alone.
24:06
We do it together and we are only responsible for our sphere
24:11
That's the vibe that we bring to these people.
24:13
So you're doing the work with people in positions of power
24:17
who are influencing other students in their academic environment
24:24
When you have these workshops, do you ever find that people
24:28
are hesitant to be open and to really want to do the work or are
24:33
these the people who are like, OK, I see a need for this.
24:37
I really want to take this in and open up.
24:39
Um Do you see like a balance or a difference with people wanting
24:44
to do the work and not wanting to do the work?
24:46
So, luckily for us, something that I, for me personally, I
24:52
used to be of the mentality that like I have to convince people
24:57
who don't think there's a problem that there's a problem,
25:00
but that's not my ministry anymore.
25:03
Because what I realize is that the energy that I'm spending
25:05
on folks who don't think there's a problem is energy that I
25:08
could spend on the people who are marginalized, who are going
25:11
through it, who need support.
25:13
So I don't, that's not my ministry.
25:15
I, if I were a white person with power and privilege in that
25:18
sector, that would be, that would be my business, right?
25:22
But that's not my business right now, right?
25:24
Uh in the in the role that I am.
25:26
And so what I, what I do is that the I am and not just me, right
25:32
My whole team, what we do is we say this is the work that we're
25:37
It's going to be vulnerable, it's going to be uncomfortable
25:41
it's going to be difficult and it's going to be transformational
25:47
And we say that up front and then folks are like the people who
25:50
come to us are the people who are ready to do that work.
25:53
The people who are tired of just learning about things or tired
25:57
of things just like the status quo, not changing all the time
26:01
And they want to see something different and they themselves
26:04
they know that that something has to change, but they don't
26:06
know where to start, right?
26:08
And so we create these learning communities where uh especially
26:13
you know, people in power and uh who are white, who have privilege
26:16
who have wealth, right?
26:18
A lot of times, you know, there are spaces in which you probably
26:21
shouldn't be like processing your feelings about your anti
26:25
blackness or, or, or about your whiteness and things like
26:29
Like you probably shouldn't be processing that in a room of
26:31
people of color, of black, indigenous and Latina people,
26:34
Because that's not the place, but there should be a place where
26:38
you can do that in support and encouragement and uh where you're
26:42
going to be challenged, but you're also gonna be, you know
26:45
space is gonna be held for you because if you don't do that
26:48
then how are you going to do the rest of the work?
26:50
Because you start internally and then you move to the relational
26:54
And then you move to sort of like policy changes and things
26:57
Use leveraging your power for that.
26:58
But first you have to start off with the foundations and if
27:01
you don't feel safe doing that, then it's gonna be really difficult
27:05
for you and it's gonna take a lot longer for you to be able to
27:07
I think safety is the most important takeaway of like providing
27:12
that space, safe space and that safe environment for you to
27:16
come to and be vulnerable and be emotional and really be open
27:21
as much as possible to making those little changes for the
27:25
Something that in my personal experience being a part of companies
27:30
who are training their employees on psychological safety
27:34
on what it means to come to a space where or come to um your manager
27:39
or someone that you work with or even just hr and feel like you
27:44
can share and be open and vulnerable, right?
27:48
To maybe better their own experience.
27:51
Like I, I remember um like my first working experience and
27:56
working underneath um literally the top of the top like CEO
28:01
S the most powerful position you can have in a company and not
28:06
feeling safe and not feeling like I could speak up and say anything
28:12
because I thought I was, you know, I bottom of the barrel, I
28:15
like barely make a difference here.
28:17
No one has, no one really cares what I have to say.
28:20
I got yelled at once so I never want to open my mouth again.
28:23
And like, I think, you know, having and doing that training
28:28
and having managers or people in academic positions, doing
28:32
those trainings and wanting to do it is like, so amazing.
28:37
And I wish more people or there are more opportunities for
28:41
people to do that because as someone coming into the workforce
28:46
and not being my first experience, I was like, oh, this is the
28:50
work force and every company is like this, I don't want to work
28:54
I don't want to do this.
28:56
Yeah, I think that one big issue that I've seen across many
29:01
industries is that we, when we do these trainings, right?
29:05
They're geared toward people with the least power, people
29:11
who are marginalized, right?
29:12
And so that's called a deficit model where we assume that you
29:15
have a lack of something, right?
29:17
So I've seen uh big companies do mentoring programs where
29:20
they'll like mentor, you know, marginalize people so that
29:23
they can level up and get into these management positions
29:26
and, and get promoted and things like that.
29:28
And oftentimes they fail and the reason that they fail is because
29:31
they're not focusing on the actual problem, right?
29:34
Which is the environment and the policies and the systems
29:36
because as much mentoring as you can have or like you can give
29:40
them all the advice in the world, but they're gonna get to that
29:43
hr panel and that's gonna be biased and that's gonna, you know
29:47
the, the manager is gonna have their favorite person and
29:49
that decision is going to be biased.
29:51
And so it's like, instead of focusing on the people who are
29:55
experiencing that marginalization, we need to zoom out and
29:58
focus on what is the culture here, what is the environment
30:01
doing that is preventing certain people from getting promoted
30:04
certain people from achieving, you know, their career path
30:07
and what they want to do, right?
30:09
And the other thing I wanted to mention is that in our company
30:12
We have a team, I believe there's 11 of us now and we go in and
30:17
we, we enter these spaces and we teach people how to be in right
30:20
relation with each other, how to build community, how to build
30:22
coalitions, really as a company, we have to embody that first
30:28
And so it's difficult to do because, you know, we're in a capitalist
30:34
society, this is a for profit business, right?
30:36
And the way that it's set up, they ask you, you know, who's the
30:40
CEO, who is, who is the owner of the company, who is the founder
30:44
because that person is liable, right?
30:47
And so like I put, I put my, uh you know, my liability on the line
30:52
I put my social security number on the line for this business
30:55
And I have a disproportionate amount of liability.
30:58
And so at the same time, we're trying to get to a place where
31:01
we're more of a collective where we engage in collective decision
31:04
making where I'm not the only person, you know, saying this
31:06
is how it's gonna go and it has been a struggle because we don't
31:10
have models for that, right?
31:12
We are literally, you know, building the plane as we fly it
31:16
What are some of the struggles that you face when you're trying
31:20
That's a really good question.
31:21
So I think a lot of the things that we run into is this mentality
31:29
that we have to do things on a deadline that things have to be
31:35
And so when you're engaging in collective decision making
31:38
it can take a little bit of time because there needs to be discussion
31:41
and people need to agree and everything like that, you need
31:43
to hear everybody out.
31:45
And so we run into this problem where we're like, oh no, but
31:47
we have to do it by this deadline and stuff like that.
31:49
And so the default is much easier.
31:51
The default is I'm gonna make an executive decision and this
31:54
is what we're gonna do, right?
31:55
That's like the swimming upstream kind of feeling where you're
31:58
like OK, this company, we want this company to do well and to
32:05
And we also want to do it in such a way that nobody else is doing
32:08
I don't wanna say nobody else because people have been building
32:10
collectives for a long time.
32:12
We're definitely not the first people to do it, but we hit these
32:15
walls where we're like, OK, we have a, a very important uh task
32:20
to bring revenue into the company so that we can, everybody
32:23
can eat and we can do the job that we need to do.
32:25
And then we also need to slow down and make these decisions
32:29
in a way that incorporates everybody's everybody's uh perspective
32:34
That's so interesting.
32:35
What size company do you have?
32:37
Like who's on how many people are on your team?
32:39
There's about 11 of us and they are not all full time.
32:43
No, I'm the only person that's full time.
32:46
Yeah, that's awesome.
32:47
So they're super passionate about being a part of this company
32:52
Honestly, I think the, the thing that best illustrates this
32:55
is that, you know, we've been in business for four years and
32:59
each year we, we grow a little bit more, but it hasn't gotten
33:02
to the point where we are completely stable as a company.
33:05
And so last fall, we got to a point where I had to, you know, make
33:10
an announcement to the team and I was like, we have depleted
33:13
all of our cash accounts.
33:15
We have no more cash in our accounts and I was like, if something
33:20
doesn't change soon, we're gonna have to, like, close in December
33:23
because obviously people, we can't have people working without
33:26
And as a Latina business owner, it's very difficult to get
33:30
funding as a company.
33:32
It's not as, you know, it's not as easy as you would have, even
33:36
for like a tech startup and something like that.
33:37
Like those of us who are minority business owners, we have
33:40
a harder time with that.
33:41
And so a lot of this is like self funded or, you know, we, we,
33:45
we bootstrap it just so happened that day that two of my teammates
33:49
were over at my place and we were co-working together because
33:51
everybody's remote, but a lot of people are in Atlanta.
33:54
And so I sent this message out and I just, I was bawling, I was
33:58
just crying and my teammates were having a meeting upstairs
34:01
and then they came out and they saw that I was, you know, sobbing
34:05
and so they came and they sat next to me and they were like, what's
34:08
going on and I told them like, I'm so afraid because, you know
34:11
as the person who's leading this company, I feel so responsible
34:14
for people's, you know, financial well being and I'm like
34:16
I'm supposed to provide, right?
34:18
And I was like, we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to close
34:21
There's like no way that I can see this moving forward after
34:23
I made this announcement to the team, my two teammates who
34:26
were, there were like, first of all, we're not gonna close
34:29
If even if we have to volunteer our time, we're not gonna do
34:33
And then I had people sending me messages privately saying
34:36
hey, like, what do you need?
34:38
Like we're gonna, we're gonna make this work no matter what
34:40
Like this company is not gonna go under.
34:42
And the thing is, you know, people were calling me and like
34:46
giving me words of encouragement and saying like, hey, like
34:48
we're in this together.
34:49
It's not just you, like you're not the only one with this responsibility
34:51
We all have a stake in this and I try to communicate to people
34:56
You cannot get that kind of culture overnight.
34:59
That's not something that just happens, right?
35:03
Where we literally are there for each other.
35:05
Like a family would be.
35:07
And a lot of times you hear like, oh, this place is a family red
35:10
Run away, run the other direction.
35:13
But in this space, it's like we have chosen to care for each
35:16
other in such a way and the company itself, the way that we care
35:21
for people as whole human beings.
35:23
They want that to continue, right?
35:25
This is they a lot of them are part time, they have other jobs
35:29
That they have to do.
35:30
But this is the space that they're like they feel that they
35:33
can be their, the truest version of themselves.
35:36
And that building, that kind of culture takes so much intention
35:41
I mean, it's, it's not easy, right?
35:43
Like, I think a month after that, uh one of our teammates called
35:48
a meeting with, uh with the whole company and they were really
35:51
frustrated with the way that, you know, we're not, we, we,
35:54
we claim that we're a collective, but we're not truly doing
35:57
There's a lot of individualism going on.
35:58
There's a lot of decision making that's, that's happening
36:00
that doesn't include the whole team.
36:03
And, you know, like I'm not a confrontational person.
36:06
I hear those things and I'm like, oh my God, like I fucked up
36:08
and I'm doing things wrong and everything like that.
36:11
And I have to do so much internal emotional work to address
36:15
my trauma and the things that are coming up for me so that I can
36:20
show up and be fully present in that conversation and not make
36:23
it about me and really say I hear your concerns.
36:26
You're right here are the things like, you know, what do we
36:28
What should we do now?
36:29
Like, let's move forward and address these things.
36:33
And, and we're constantly coming up to things like that.
36:35
So that's not the one and only time that that has happened right
36:38
this week it happened you know, a different team, you know
36:40
came and they were like, we're frustrated about XY and Z things
36:43
Well, I think that's a really good point of not letting your
36:45
past trauma check what's happening in the now because although
36:49
you're the CEO and you're the founder of the company, you are
36:53
a community that you created and that means that you also get
36:59
constructive criticism back and kind of like it keeps you
37:03
on check because going back to what you said, it's like, how
37:06
can you as a company, advise other people to create safe and
37:11
open environments um for, you know, for other people, if it's
37:15
not reflective of your own company, you know, and I love that
37:19
mentality because it's like you and your employees truly
37:22
believe in what you're, you're um teaching other people and
37:26
it's an embodiment of your work and your entire company.
37:31
And so when you're doing and sharing all of this knowledge
37:35
that you have based on your previous experiences, it's like
37:37
it comes off as so you in.
37:40
But I think that's really amazing that you are doing the internal
37:44
work on yourself and in your company.
37:47
So that way you can show up better for other people and do the
37:51
Um But with that being said, and you having like ups and downs
37:56
with your business, you're still, you're still afloat, you're
38:01
I mean, that is literally because of the community that I'm
38:05
in and something that I've learned from them is that like,
38:09
because, you know, I come in with this mentality like, I'm
38:12
the CEO I'm basically the mom, right.
38:14
I'm like, y'all are my babies and I have to provide for you.
38:18
And if I'm not doing that, then I'm failing somehow.
38:20
And they're like, first of all, no, they literally told me
38:23
they were like, we are adults.
38:25
We know that we have bills to pay like we're here for out of choice
38:28
And um they've taught me that the mentality that I had about
38:33
like being in charge and being a leader and like wanting to
38:36
provide for them, it was preventing us from becoming a true
38:39
community where I was also a community member, right?
38:41
And I get to lay my work down and, and, and take a step back and
38:46
be like, I don't have it today.
38:47
Can somebody else step in?
38:49
You know, and without that like you cannot build it, it has
38:53
to be built on mutual aid.
38:54
We help each other, not I'm saving you or I'm I'm providing
38:58
Like this is a community where I, I really wanna get to the point
39:01
where and I think we all want this in uh on our team is that I'm
39:05
the CEO in name only because I am just as much a community member
39:10
and I don't have, you know, the the power to like sway people
39:17
Because I'm the one who's like paying their checks, it's very
39:20
difficult to do because you still have these, the power dynamics
39:23
are still there and you have to acknowledge them, right?
39:26
And every single one of us, not just me is doing that internal
39:29
work and showing up for each other and uh and also willing to
39:33
engage in generative conflict, right?
39:36
That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but that brings us closer
39:40
to the world that we're trying to build.
39:42
Do you have any exciting plans for the future with your company
39:45
or anything like that?
39:47
So when I started this company, it was literally because I
39:52
didn't want to work for white men anymore, I wanted to do my
39:55
own thing and I was like, I want to do the work that I want to do
40:00
But now I feel like it's bigger than me, you know, there are
40:04
so many people who are invested in the work that we do and the
40:07
the team that works with me, you know, something, the dreams
40:10
that I have now are so different.
40:12
It's like I want us all to be at a point where we're financially
40:17
Like I want us to be a company where, you know, 30 hours a week
40:22
or less is like, you know, 25 hours.
40:24
That's the, that's full time and there's plenty of time for
40:28
creative pursuits, right?
40:29
Where everyone has health insurance and everyone, you know
40:33
has like a, a salary and we can, we can use the profits that
40:37
we make in the company to reinvest back in the community.
40:40
So for us, it's like we want to expand and not just work with
40:45
universities and, and scientific spaces.
40:49
Is it just, are you just working in scientific academic spaces
40:53
Are you going to move maybe in other areas of business?
40:58
So we have mostly worked with scientists because most of us
41:02
are scientists on our, on our team.
41:03
And that's definitely my niche.
41:06
But something that we're realizing is that the, the things
41:08
that we're teaching are so fundamental to any organization
41:11
that we want to be able to take those lessons everywhere, right
41:17
And so that's something that we want to do.
41:19
I think that it's a little bit different with organizations
41:22
because you have to have buy in from the top real like we do not
41:30
work with folks who are not ready to do the work because we want
41:34
to create lasting sustainable change.
41:36
Wherever we go, we want to make sure that like by the time we're
41:39
finished with our partnership that is going to continue,
41:42
We don't want to like just like you get, you get a sticker and
41:46
then we move on and everything goes right back to the way it
41:48
We are very committed to this work in that way.
41:51
And so I think that moving into working with organizations
41:56
it's like, all right, like, if you know who we are, if you,
41:59
if you vibe with what, you know, with the energy that we're
42:02
putting out, then, yes, absolutely.
42:03
Like we would love to work with you.
42:05
We would love to show y'all how to create a culture that everybody
42:08
wants to be and that, that people are committed to each other
42:12
and taking care of each other.
42:13
And also we, I mean, we're building a future in which it doesn't
42:18
have to be like this.
42:19
It doesn't have to be like this, this the way that things are
42:21
right now is actually detrimental to all of us.
42:24
You know, I'm sure you felt it like there's so many people who
42:27
are not willing to work uh in these terrible conditions anymore
42:31
There's been so many strikes, so many labor strikes, so many
42:34
people that are like, yeah, I'm not doing this.
42:35
I mean, they're starting my own thing.
42:36
I'm working for myself.
42:37
I'm gonna find a job where I can work from home.
42:40
Something that treats me like a human.
42:42
And I think there's so many people who are going to start demanding
42:44
that now, something that I like to ask our guests each time
42:48
at the end of the podcast is if they had any advice for either
42:52
themselves or a younger version of themselves.
42:56
Um, something they'd like to tell themselves back then that
43:01
Oh, man, it's gonna make me emotional a little bit, but it's
43:06
So I think what I would tell myself is that I deserve to be treated
43:15
as a whole human being and that there isn't anything that I
43:20
need to do differently, that exactly the way that I am is perfectly
43:26
ok and is going to get me very far and I don't need to compromise
43:30
on anything, uh, any part of who I am in order to be successful
43:35
and that I can define success for myself.
43:37
And for me, that means it means community, it means being in
43:40
right relationship and it doesn't have to be what everybody
43:42
else has defined it to be.
43:45
I feel like in our community, we're so used to changing ourselves
43:50
or making ourselves smaller or less talkative, quiet or in
43:57
all these different spaces and reminding ourselves that
44:01
we don't have to do that, right.
44:03
We deserve so much more.
44:05
We deserve the same respect as everyone else in our field,
44:08
regardless of the field.
44:10
I think that's really great advice.
44:12
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
44:14
I really enjoyed our conversation and I, I honestly think
44:18
you're doing such great work because, you know, not many people
44:21
know if they're not in those spaces of academia who are not
44:27
getting phd s, they might not know what those experiences
44:31
And to know that people in people who are marginalized are
44:35
experiencing all these negative, you know, experiences
44:40
and So I think you're doing such great work and I hope more people
44:44
follow in your footsteps because it's so great.
44:47
Thank you so much and thank you for having me.
Series